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	<title>Comments on: Who Killed the Avro Arrow?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://radiofreethinker.com/2012/07/04/who-killed-the-avro-arrow/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://radiofreethinker.com/2012/07/04/who-killed-the-avro-arrow/</link>
	<description>Vancouver&#039;s Number 1 Skeptical Podcast and Radio Show</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 02 May 2013 19:33:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Murray B</title>
		<link>http://radiofreethinker.com/2012/07/04/who-killed-the-avro-arrow/#comment-8498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Murray B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 May 2013 19:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radiofreethinker.com/?p=3231#comment-8498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Most sources give the maximum speed of the interceptor version of the Voodoo as around Mach 1.7 but it doesn&#039;t matter much since the RCAF specification was for Mach 1.5.  Both the Voodoo and the Arrow were faster than that.

The Mach 2+ designs that I was referring to were the Starfighter and the Thunderchief both of which were in service before the Arrow was cancelled in early 1959.
 
Some people seem to confuse an aircraft&#039;s maximum continuous speed rating with the peak or &quot;dash&quot; speed.   For example, the Bristol 188 was rated for Mach 1.88 but could exceed Mach 2 for a few minutes.  This is not the same as a Mach 2+ rated aircraft like the Starfighter which could fly at speeds over Mach 2 until they ran out of fuel.
  
The Arrow is unusual in that various sources give maximum speed values ranging from Mach 1.9 to Mach 3.5.  This makes it the most overrated aircraft in history.  The most reasonable value is Mach 1.9 because the Arrow was not fully area ruled.  Almost all successful Mach 2+ aircraft designs applied the rule from nose to tail but Avro Canada did not fully apply the rule along the entire length of the Arrow&#039;s fuselage.  This meant the Arrow had more drag than competing designs and it follows that it had less range.  The Arrow was estimated to cost $9.7 million compared to the Voodoo&#039;s $2 million but the Arrow only had two-thirds of the Voodoo&#039;s range.  These were major factors in the Canadian Chiefs of Staff 1958 recommendation to cancel the Arrow program.
  
Diefenbaker&#039;s Government took the advice and cancelled the Arrow.  More than fifty years of devisive lies soon followed.
  
P.S. The Iroquois was nowhere near ready for production.  According to “The Arrow Countdown” by Peter Zuuring page 43, “Charles [Charles Grinyer, VP Engineering at Orenda] said that just before cancellation, the seventh stage compressor rotor was throwing blades without any conclusive solution determined.” and later on page 53, “Charles told me that if they had only had one more year on the project, the Iroquois would truly have met its revolutionary goals.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most sources give the maximum speed of the interceptor version of the Voodoo as around Mach 1.7 but it doesn&#8217;t matter much since the RCAF specification was for Mach 1.5.  Both the Voodoo and the Arrow were faster than that.</p>
<p>The Mach 2+ designs that I was referring to were the Starfighter and the Thunderchief both of which were in service before the Arrow was cancelled in early 1959.</p>
<p>Some people seem to confuse an aircraft&#8217;s maximum continuous speed rating with the peak or &#8220;dash&#8221; speed.   For example, the Bristol 188 was rated for Mach 1.88 but could exceed Mach 2 for a few minutes.  This is not the same as a Mach 2+ rated aircraft like the Starfighter which could fly at speeds over Mach 2 until they ran out of fuel.</p>
<p>The Arrow is unusual in that various sources give maximum speed values ranging from Mach 1.9 to Mach 3.5.  This makes it the most overrated aircraft in history.  The most reasonable value is Mach 1.9 because the Arrow was not fully area ruled.  Almost all successful Mach 2+ aircraft designs applied the rule from nose to tail but Avro Canada did not fully apply the rule along the entire length of the Arrow&#8217;s fuselage.  This meant the Arrow had more drag than competing designs and it follows that it had less range.  The Arrow was estimated to cost $9.7 million compared to the Voodoo&#8217;s $2 million but the Arrow only had two-thirds of the Voodoo&#8217;s range.  These were major factors in the Canadian Chiefs of Staff 1958 recommendation to cancel the Arrow program.</p>
<p>Diefenbaker&#8217;s Government took the advice and cancelled the Arrow.  More than fifty years of devisive lies soon followed.</p>
<p>P.S. The Iroquois was nowhere near ready for production.  According to “The Arrow Countdown” by Peter Zuuring page 43, “Charles [Charles Grinyer, VP Engineering at Orenda] said that just before cancellation, the seventh stage compressor rotor was throwing blades without any conclusive solution determined.” and later on page 53, “Charles told me that if they had only had one more year on the project, the Iroquois would truly have met its revolutionary goals.”</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Darian</title>
		<link>http://radiofreethinker.com/2012/07/04/who-killed-the-avro-arrow/#comment-8475</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Darian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 May 2013 07:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radiofreethinker.com/?p=3231#comment-8475</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[English Electric Lightning and the Convair F-106 Delta Dart were both capable of Mach 2, with the Dart capable of Mach 2.3. Both were lighter and carried guns, something that the Arrow never had.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>English Electric Lightning and the Convair F-106 Delta Dart were both capable of Mach 2, with the Dart capable of Mach 2.3. Both were lighter and carried guns, something that the Arrow never had.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://radiofreethinker.com/2012/07/04/who-killed-the-avro-arrow/#comment-8311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radiofreethinker.com/?p=3231#comment-8311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The first F-101A (VOODOO) was delivered on 2 May 1957 to the 27th Strategic Fighter Wing, which transferred to TAC in July that year,[12] replacing their F-84F Thunderstreak. The F-101A was powered by two Pratt &amp; Whitney J57-P-13 turbojets,[11] allowing good acceleration, climb-performance, ease in penetrating the sound barrier in level flight, and a maximum performance of Mach 1.52.  

1.52 MAXIMUM!

The Arrow was only being TESTED when it reached Mach 1.98 (not 1.9) and was 2 weeks from being delivered with the Iroquois engines, where it was expected to beat the speed and altitude record.

Please tell me which fighter jets were in service in 1958 when the program was cancelled that were continuously rated for operation above mach 2?  (Other than experimental flying jet engines)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first F-101A (VOODOO) was delivered on 2 May 1957 to the 27th Strategic Fighter Wing, which transferred to TAC in July that year,[12] replacing their F-84F Thunderstreak. The F-101A was powered by two Pratt &amp; Whitney J57-P-13 turbojets,[11] allowing good acceleration, climb-performance, ease in penetrating the sound barrier in level flight, and a maximum performance of Mach 1.52.  </p>
<p>1.52 MAXIMUM!</p>
<p>The Arrow was only being TESTED when it reached Mach 1.98 (not 1.9) and was 2 weeks from being delivered with the Iroquois engines, where it was expected to beat the speed and altitude record.</p>
<p>Please tell me which fighter jets were in service in 1958 when the program was cancelled that were continuously rated for operation above mach 2?  (Other than experimental flying jet engines)</p>
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		<title>By: Murray B</title>
		<link>http://radiofreethinker.com/2012/07/04/who-killed-the-avro-arrow/#comment-5267</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Murray B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radiofreethinker.com/?p=3231#comment-5267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is sad that these stories are still going around especially when it is not difficult to find out what happened.  Here are a few facts:

1. After WWII the Government of Canada sold a large part of the Canadian Aerospace industry to the British and what became Avro Canada was part of that sale.  The company was a wholly owned part of British Hawker-Siddeley and the top guy was Sir Roy Dobson in London, England.

2. The Arrow set no performance records whatsoever.  The maximum continuous speed rating of the Arrow was mach 1.9 when there were already aircraft in service rated for continous operation above mach 2.0.  Nevertheless the Arrow did meet the speed specification because it had been reduced from mach 2.0 to mach 1.5.

3.  The Arrow had short range and could only fly about two-thirds as far as the Voodoos that were purchased instead.  The limited range was the major reason the Americans and British gave when they declined to purchase the aircraft.

4. The Liberals decided to cancel the program in 1957 but were defeated before they could do it.

5.  In 1958 the military, NAE and DRB all recommended cancellation and John Diefenbaker took the advice.

No one that knew the facts about the Arrow was surprised when is was cancelled and few in Canada wanted an aircraft that was nearly five times as expensive as the Voodoo to do the same sort of jobs.

The biggest mystery is why the Arrow fiction keeps on growing decade after decade.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is sad that these stories are still going around especially when it is not difficult to find out what happened.  Here are a few facts:</p>
<p>1. After WWII the Government of Canada sold a large part of the Canadian Aerospace industry to the British and what became Avro Canada was part of that sale.  The company was a wholly owned part of British Hawker-Siddeley and the top guy was Sir Roy Dobson in London, England.</p>
<p>2. The Arrow set no performance records whatsoever.  The maximum continuous speed rating of the Arrow was mach 1.9 when there were already aircraft in service rated for continous operation above mach 2.0.  Nevertheless the Arrow did meet the speed specification because it had been reduced from mach 2.0 to mach 1.5.</p>
<p>3.  The Arrow had short range and could only fly about two-thirds as far as the Voodoos that were purchased instead.  The limited range was the major reason the Americans and British gave when they declined to purchase the aircraft.</p>
<p>4. The Liberals decided to cancel the program in 1957 but were defeated before they could do it.</p>
<p>5.  In 1958 the military, NAE and DRB all recommended cancellation and John Diefenbaker took the advice.</p>
<p>No one that knew the facts about the Arrow was surprised when is was cancelled and few in Canada wanted an aircraft that was nearly five times as expensive as the Voodoo to do the same sort of jobs.</p>
<p>The biggest mystery is why the Arrow fiction keeps on growing decade after decade.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart</title>
		<link>http://radiofreethinker.com/2012/07/04/who-killed-the-avro-arrow/#comment-5225</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stuart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2012 22:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radiofreethinker.com/?p=3231#comment-5225</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ahead of its time technologically, but behind the times strategically. Its price tag just couldn&#039;t be justified if it was destined to play only a bit part in the mounting cold war.

I was looking forward to some rather juicy conspiracy theories, but it seems they hold less water than a wicker basket. Thanks for this detailed discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahead of its time technologically, but behind the times strategically. Its price tag just couldn&#8217;t be justified if it was destined to play only a bit part in the mounting cold war.</p>
<p>I was looking forward to some rather juicy conspiracy theories, but it seems they hold less water than a wicker basket. Thanks for this detailed discussion.</p>
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